Curse

Zuranthium · Aug 26, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

You can still kill yourself with a 1% health sac. I'm sure we all have stories about miraculous escapes from situations with 1 HP left (whether you can remember them or not). The skills would retain their flavor while becoming functional; I don't see the problem.

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Aug 26, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You can still kill yourself with a 1% health sac. I'm sure we all have stories about miraculous escapes from situations with 1 HP left (whether you can remember them or not). The skills would retain their flavor while becoming functional; I don't see the problem.

~Z

And no idiot would be saccing at 1 hp.

The problem is that you're adding 1% health sac (basically nothing) to skills just so that they work with masochism. As someone said, you might as well just add "this skill works with masochism" to all of the descriptions and be done with it.

Thomas.knbk · Aug 26, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You can still kill yourself with a 1% health sac. I'm sure we all have stories about miraculous escapes from situations with 1 HP left (whether you can remember them or not). The skills would retain their flavor while becoming functional; I don't see the problem.

~Z

Who the hell would be so god damn stupid? The only thing you should do at 1% HP is run really fast and yell really hard. Seriously, do you ever see people killing themselves with a health sac?

B B · Aug 26, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Feral Aggression + Otyugh's Cry is funny in the arenas.

Riotgear · Aug 27, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

AOE Wail of Doom would be overpowered to the extreme.

Zuranthium · Aug 27, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Who the hell would be so god damn stupid? The only thing you should do at 1% HP is run really fast and yell really hard. Seriously, do you ever see people killing themselves with a health sac?

The point is not that you kill yourself with health sac but that the skills become un-usable once your health has dropped to that amount. If you're at just 2 or 3 health and trying to run around that corner to get away from a Ranger, but they have time to make one shot before you get there, a 1% health sac on Wail of Doom would make all the difference in the world. This is in addition to the fact that the health loss does make you more prone to a spike. It's only a 5 or 6 HP loss with a 1% health sac, but that small amount can make a difference. Monks can't be healing you every time you sac 1% health and LoD only takes effect below 80%.

Again, there's nothing wrong with making these sub-par skills useful while letting them retain some kind of flavor. That should actually be a goal whenever possible. This game has 10 classes and it's fairly necessary to make them distinctive. Perhaps GW2 will only have with 4 classes - Warrior, Ranger, Healer, Mage. That's all you need if you want to get down to the basic mechanics. But this isn't GW2 and the game at hand can't very well delete/ignore/mishandle any of the 10 classes they've put into the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

AOE Wail of Doom would be overpowered to the extreme.

With an adjacent AOE, you really think so? It would require precise timing that often isn't in the caster's hands in the first place for the skill to be able to thwart a melee train. I don't see it being any more powerful than other skills already out there...

~Z

moriz · Aug 27, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

sloth hunter's shot is very nice. it will bring the cripshot back into the gvg picture by giving them a true spike attack, as well as a way to kill npcs a little faster.

Winstar · Aug 27, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

sloth hunter's shot is very nice. it will bring the cripshot back into the gvg picture by giving them a true spike attack, as well as a way to kill npcs a little faster.

Crip shots are already pretty frquently used in GvG. I don't know what you would possibly want to drop off the bar for that.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Aug 27, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by winstar

I admit 2 second cast is a slight drawback...but not for the effect gained.

SLIGHT drawback? 2 out of 14 seconds of doing nothing (provided no one interrupts you) is losing you a LOT of DPS, this coupled with the fact that any ranger worth a damn WILL dshot you as well as losing access to skills like shock, conjure and rending touch makes this skill a terrible terrible idea for a frontliner.

Bows arent taken for DPS, rapid fire won't change anything there, if you want DPS and ranged attacks go Paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

a load of crap

Please stop posting.

moriz · Aug 27, 2007, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Crip shots are already pretty frquently used in GvG. I don't know what you would possibly want to drop off the bar for that.

rez sig/purge sig.

in fact, a lot of cripshots are running a second bow attack already, usually hunter's or screaming shot. with sloth hunter's shot, the build's spiking ability has just gone beyond the burning arrow ranger, although burning arrow is still better from a DPS perspective.

granted, not everyone will run the second bow attack. this is just for those who plan on splitting the cripshot and can deal with one less rez sig.

Thomas.knbk · Aug 27, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The point is not that you kill yourself with health sac but that the skills become un-usable once your health has dropped to that amount. If you're at just 2 or 3 health and trying to run around that corner to get away from a Ranger, but they have time to make one shot before you get there, a 1% health sac on Wail of Doom would make all the difference in the world. This is in addition to the fact that the health loss does make you more prone to a spike. It's only a 5 or 6 HP loss with a 1% health sac, but that small amount can make a difference. Monks can't be healing you every time you sac 1% health and LoD only takes effect below 80%.

That's some of the worst theorycrafting I've ever seen. In the two years I've played guild wars I think I've dropped to 5-6 health and lived to tell maybe....4 times. Balancing skills around something that barely ever happens is kind of stupid. IMO.
And when I did drop down so low I can't recall to have felt the urge to use a sacrifice skill. (and if sacrifice skills weren't totally terrible I don't think I would have) The only urge I really felt at that point was to be infused.

There's nothing wrong with buffing some sac skills. They can be a nice alternative to energy cost, but the sac needs to be so big that you actually notice it most of the times you use it. So not once every 6 months. The way I see it, the health sac needs to be big enough to let the energy cost drop, otherwise you might as well remove it and add a 'this skill works with masochism' note.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Crip shots are already pretty frquently used in GvG. I don't know what you would possibly want to drop off the bar for that.

res sig

Darkpower Alchemist · Aug 27, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Sloth Hunter's Shot is solid and deadly. Zuranthium, the guys are right. Saccing 1% health to use 1 spell makes it rather pointless, though the sac skills need some work, this wouldn't be helping the cause in a good way.

Rapid Fire works as an IAS on all weapons. I like it, but think it should be in Expertise and not Marksmanship. I love "You move like a Dwarf!", hilariously useful(PvE skill). Still, the lotus dagger skills are awesome all around. So many skills I didn't use yet, but my time is coming soon.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 27, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

How sac spells should work is that they should be good enough to warrant the sac, but then you have to be extremely careful not to overpower them. I think that a really good example of a decent sac skill is OoB, though it has been overshadowed by power creep (and the uselessness of necros outside of hexes). But how it was used back when hex builds used a siphon/OoB spammer with HP was an example of a pretty good sac skill.

Riotgear · Aug 27, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

With an adjacent AOE, you really think so? It would require precise timing that often isn't in the caster's hands in the first place for the skill to be able to thwart a melee train. I don't see it being any more powerful than other skills already out there...

The problem is that when you catch a melee train, you've basically punched the cornerstones of their offense in the face for the next 15+ seconds and there's nothing they can do about it but wait.

Zuranthium · Aug 28, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

A good lesson for them not to train when facing said character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

That's some of the worst theorycrafting I've ever seen. In the two years I've played guild wars I think I've dropped to 5-6 health and lived to tell maybe....4 times.

I find that entirely hard to believe. I believe that in general we simply are not aware of, and/or forget, how many times we've come very, very close to death and got heal just in time.

Why are people RABID about putting +health on their armor for GvG? If that +5 health from the headpiece really didn't make a difference, they'd be using +1 energy. Again, being just a little bit below your max health can certainly make a difference between living or dying when you take a big splurge of damage. Enough to make a 1% sac count just a tiny bit over the long run instead of making the skills read 'this skill works with masochism'...which is just a totally ham-fisted and inorganic clause to tack onto a skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

The way I see it, the health sac needs to be big enough to let the energy cost drop

For some skills, sure. For others the function simply doesn't call for that. You don't want to be saccing a bunch of health on Wail of Doom, a skill that's supposed to help you live when you suddenly get spiked by a Physical.

~Z

placebo overdose · Aug 28, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

i think some warrior combos are fun but overpowered grapple+IMTDT is so crazy

Riotgear · Aug 28, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

A good lesson for them not to train when facing said character.

Apparently only bad warriors converge on targets.

Quote:

Why are people RABID about putting +health on their armor for GvG? If that +5 health from the headpiece really didn't make a difference, they'd be using +1 energy.

Because +1 energy and 12% chance to get +10 armor against some specific damage type are even more useless.

Quote:

Enough to make a 1% sac count just a tiny bit over the long run instead of making the skills read 'this skill works with masochism'...which is just a totally ham-fisted and inorganic clause to tack onto a skill.

+5 HP mods are not for long-term effect either, if people gave a shit about long-term effects, they'd be using +10 armor insignias. Long-term effects get mopped up incidentally by LOD. +health mods are to give you a higher chance of survival against damage bursts.

Nobody gives a shit about 1% health sac, that's like 1 pip of degen if you're spamming it on recharge.

twicky_kid · Aug 28, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

I didn't find anything that was really that overpowered. Knee cutter is nice but energy and adren really doesn't mean much on a cripslash bar.

Zuranthium · Aug 28, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Apparently only bad warriors converge on targets.

If you're facing a Wail Necro and you know the skill is open, yeah. Or you could try and be pro and converge from opposite sides so that you're no longer adjacent to each other.

I do see your concern but I really think it would be fine since Wail isn't guaranteed shutdown. The duration of the black-out effect could always be shorted if it was found too powerful. We really won't know for sure unless the change actually happens and it could be tested, though. I prefer to at least try and then fix the resulting issues than never have attempted at all. But, of course, it does come down to the workload ANET is willing/able to put out for such kinds of matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

+5 HP mods are not for long-term effect either, if people gave a shit about long-term effects, they'd be using +10 armor insignias. Long-term effects get mopped up incidentally by LOD. +health mods are to give you a higher chance of survival against damage bursts.

Nobody gives a shit about 1% health sac, that's like 1 pip of degen if you're spamming it on recharge.

I never said it was about long-term? And, no, nobody really should care too much about 1% health sac on a skill. But it can make a difference...in the exact same way that +health mods give a higher chance of survival, a 1% health sac lowers that chance for whatever amount of time until you get healed back to full. It's quite minor in the grand scheme of things but there's no denying that it can cause an impact from time to time.

Which is why I see it being perfectly fine to put a 1% sac on a few Necro skills to create the right kind of synergy those skills need while remaining true to the flavor of the Necromancer class. It's a logical solution.

~Z

Riotgear · Aug 28, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I never said it was about long-term? And, no, nobody really should care too much about 1% health sac on a skill. But it can make a difference...in the exact same way that +health mods give a higher chance of survival, a 1% health sac lowers that chance for whatever amount of time until you get healed back to full. It's quite minor in the grand scheme of things but there's no denying that it can cause an impact from time to time.

The problem is you're using a +5HP health mod as a justifier for that when the +5HP mod is simply the best option out of several yawn-worthy ones. 5HP is probably NOT going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

The simple fact is that losing at most 6 HP on use of a handful of skills isn't really going to change anything, health sac was meant as an additional cost to a skill and to discourage overuse of it, not a retroactive fuel for Masochism. If a skill is too expensive and needs Masochism as a justification for using it, then the skill probably just sucks and needs some other change.